(I get to keep whatever I dont spend.) I wont leave SoCal again til I shuffle off this mortal coil. :-) Besides, I commute with my husband and we keep each other company during the drive. (By comparison, my father has commuted an hour+ for 38 years. The few times I drove in (a 45 minute drive without traffic), it was 1-1.5 hours each way. I enjoy NPRs Wait Wait Dont Tell Me, which is a light-hearted way to catch up with current events. Yes, this. Youre commuting about 20-24 hours a week! But since its against traffic, its 25-30 minutes of highway driving. Bad traffic day, more like 75 minutes. Id just say that you should see if you can find a new job before you quit. My last commute was 1.5 hours average, 1.25 on a good day, 2.5 on a terrible day and I loved that job. This sounds about right for LA traffic. For me, that makes the commute worth it for now. When I got my current job it was 1.5 hour commute for about 6 months, when my apartment lease ended I moved as close to work as I could afford and now have a 20 minute commute. Its not smart comedy in quite the same vein as those, but the No Such Thing as a Fish podcast is wonderful. You do need to try and be organised though and get a good nights sleep. There might be a convenient public transit option for you. Mine is 35 minutes. I worked in Sherman Oaks/Encino and lived in West Hollywood. 2 hours is totally normal and expected for a trip like this in rush hour. Most of of commute by car during typical rush-hour traffic is that helps. I turned into a zombie and that negatively affected my job performance. *My cousin commutes from the edge of the surrounding New York Metro Area to the city. Just because they dont value their lives and the people in it, doesnt mean the rest of the company has to follow. In that case, subway and bus! Chicago suburbs, work just past the West Loop; my morning commute door-to-door (walk, Metra, work shuttle) is an hour. Yeah once I had stopped an hour commute, I shudder thinking about ever having to do that again. I did try another of her series by audiobook though and really enjoyed it Indexing. The big difference is that NYC (and most of the big cities in the northeast) were big cities before autos became common. And the alternate routes actually arent any faster, just more interesting (residential/light business) to look at. Even a cab will take me about 30 minutes due to rush hour traffic. Unfortunately, if you want a shorter commute, you may have to move. My max is 1 hour. I could never do more than 30-35 minutes. Most years, five of the 10 busiest freeways in the world are on southern California. The distance between my house and my office was about 13 miles. I drove through 6 school zones. It is what it is for each individual. Thats twelve hours a day of work plus commute. I can do the drive in 20-30 minutes, depending what time I leave. Even then I thought I had no time for anything outside of work! Would commuting to DC from Fredericksburg be doable if Would having the CompTIA trifecta and two years desktop Would this large litter box with a grate be suitable for Would having the better debt to income and an extra 500 a What do your partners family do that they think is normal What was the dumbest rule your school thought up? . and they NEVER LISTEN. Some of that travel long was hampered by the idiots ahead of me who decided to use the time to have an impromptu make out session, and I couldnt get around them. My car is okay, not that great. Hang out for ~2 hours Thank you for this! I grew up in the Inland Empire and for a while commuted to my job in South LA, ~40 miles. by car: 25 minutes. Ive always thought it would be awesome to be able to walk to work! Thats true. I work from home and share a car with my wife, whose job is on the other side of townall of 10 minutes away if we go exactly at the speed limit! If your boss likes to come in late, and stay late, could you do that as well? Then we do try and do happy hours every month or so near work to catch up / avoid traffic home. How is it a gaslight? If this job allows you the finances/time to travel, do things you love then its something you have to take into account. I need to have time to rest and a life, so Ive always applied for jobs that were a reasonable 30-minute commute away. Thank you :D. I use them to read books that I wouldnt have purchased or spent valuable eye-reading time on, and Ive discovered a few favorite authors that I wouldnt have expected. I would say if you love your try, try to relocate. Ive got two young kids I never get time to myself at home before their bedtime. My east coast transplant friends cannot fathom how LA natives do this day in and day out. Here in California, I recently (2.5 months ago) accepted a new job as an EA for a great company thats about 30 miles away. Anyway! It was horrid, really horrid. One hour for me, but that includes dropping off a kid at school. Is it worth travelling 1.5/2 hours to University everyday or would it be better to live in halls. What matters is youre miserable, so you should look elsewhere. That said, in OC and some parts of LA county, it is entirely possible to work minutes away from your residence, or find alternate routes, or work non-peak traffic hours. Horror or smart comedy (like George Carlin and seinfeld)! Accept this and stop trying to beat it. and I barely even made it to the appointment because traffic was so bad. Im sooo looking forward to it. Add in the higher tax rates, and general COL differences and wed have needed to literally double our household income to get roughly the same quality of life. If I lived in a more metropolitan area I wouldnt mind a 1-2 hour commute on mass transit because there would be less stress (not navigating traffic) and I could feasibly check work emails or do anything else on my phone. Husband has a drive thats almost always about 55 minutes and much prefers it to a previous commute that was shorter on average could be anywhere from 30-90 minutes. Wake up at 5AM I vowed to never drive more than 30 mins each way (on a regular basis, there always can be exceptions) and have actually chosen to live really close to my jobs since then. My stomach and heart misses it so much. Even if the boyfriend or other people find it acceptable, they really dont have to give up trying to find another solution. Right, its not just the time, its the type of time. Distance in miles is not how the commute is measured in LA/OC, and a 2-hour commute could be entirely normal based on where you live. The Bay has faster commutes than SoCal, in part because theres more commuter rails and theres more carpooling and carpool incentives). The Bay Area is quickly approaching LA levels traffic wise- unless you are in an area with BART access. Yes some people accept it and do it. I faux commuted to my target neighborhoods to make sure I could handle it. (But the solution is to drive off peak because there isnt really a public transit option thats any faster than driving during rush hour.). Angeleno here and definitely not. We have to take the dreaded 91, but since theres 3+ people in the van, we get to use the 91 toll lanes for free. That said, I do still miss the beach and weather a ton. That would be my version of Hell on earth. I walk home from work when its nice out (prefer not to walk there so I dont end up all sweaty when I arrive at the office if its hot out) and it is so wonderful and soothing. -A big bag of your favorite nuts and some icy cold water. Boston commutes are about 1 hour and many commute between Massachusetts and Providence up to an hour. Yeah my other sister lives in Issaquah, and I hear the traffic is getting just as bad as it is where Im at now. While my to the office commute was short, I did travel alot and the drive to/from LAX was horrible. Google Mythbusters can a traffic jam form from a driver tapping their brakes. Now we can afford to save for a house and have space to start a family. Have you looked into taking the train/subway? Drive, train and subway. He has a vanpool which makes it easier, but he is still out of the house for 12 hours a day. Wow. (Not that it needs to be made to sound worse, but there may be a grass-is-greener situation happening where they think about their old life). Southern California is wonderful, but the traffic is just miserable, but again, it is a trade off for living there. I used to commute from Jersey City to Western NJ (about an hour on insane roads) and once I moved to CT my commute went down to about 5 minutes. Is there still that delicious lebanese restaurant and french bakery on 2nd? I did the same thing when I was house hunting since I was pretty committed to the job. Public transit is not that amazing, especially if you are outside the city core. Easy Apply. Sorry! This is normal, but its not sustainable. I read about LA traffic before, but thought how bad can it REALLY be? There is no reason why you should accept this commute as part of your life. The user goes on to say that the way they see it, it's only at 2 hrs twice a week which would be the same as 35-40 mins daily of a commute. 30 miles is definitely going to be 2 hours in LA traffic. Thats WHY we have such horrible traffic! Totally fine. He missed the birth of our baby. Incredibly long wait times before leaving stations? Should I ever leave here, the commute will be a MAJOR factor. Like most long commuters, my drive home was the worst and one little fender bender could tack another hour on my drive. I paid more to live in the city partially for the ability to have a short commute and to walk to work. I live in NJ and commute into NYC and my commute is roughly two hours door to door. I hope to return to say more about LA traffic and choosing your jobs based on commute (which can include commuter buses, light rail, and number of alternate driving routes available), but the short version is: dont let your boyfriends acceptance of a long commute pressure you into accepting something that you find exhausting and/or sou-killing. I left NYC bc I was so sick of the city life struggle and giving 60% of my salary to rent. Some of my coworkers commute in from the Inland Empire, some commute in from Long Beach. I second the comments about working LB, Signal Hill or Orange County. I dont mind driving 35 to 40 minutes for work, but I absolutely hate SITTING in traffic for that amount of time. I used to work in Century City which is less than 4 miles from my house. Thats a horrifying commute. Four hours a day, or twenty hours a week just getting to and from work? So consume as much content as you can. I had to try really hard not to laugh. I have been working at home for over 5 years now and cannot imagine going back to a job I had to commute to. I lived in hollywood, worked in Brentwood. It gave pretty good estimates of the average commute times. The other parent leaves a little later and drops off the kid, but works later. In June my company is moving to a location five minutes from my house, and even though Ive been unhappy I quit my job hunt just for that reason. I have co-workers who live in Freemont, South San Jose, Marin and La Honda and their commutes are so brutal that I would have quit a long time ago if Id had to do that. Evening is a little longer because the work shuttle hits some heavy traffic. But Im not one to just complain so Im actively looking for a new opportunity to better suit what I want. So your commute really comes down to strategic choices about where you live (and Id you can afford it), traffic patterns, and where you work. It means that you basically live to work during the week. I was just about to point out this every same thing. I dont think Id be able to handle more than half an hour driving. I had a coworker who did Pasadena Playa Del Rey. All rights reserved. Id say the job I had with a 20-minute car commute and the one with the 45-minute bus ride were about at the same stress level. It depends on your definition of L.A. A lot of people here consider L.A. the entire county, not just Los Angeles proper, and the county is huge. I meant to say cycling is more* tolerable than driving. A little over an hour is by commuter rail. If theres absolutely no traffic, I can make it from home to work in about 12 minutes, but with traffic its usually about 25. Ultimately, I had to change jobs because the commute was too much.). Even a 15 minute shift makes the commute better or worse. For example, I live on the Westside. I hate driving to his and he hates driving to mine. 4) See if you boss will allow a much later arrival when it rains. If there was a better transit system in my area, I would be okay with a long commute, but Im from Seattle. Now my commute is 10-15 minutes, depending on when I leave for work. Most of my friends live 25-30 miles north, so I see them on the weekends or evenings when I can do the drive sans traffic. (Part of it was also the half mile between my apartment and the station and then the half mile between the station and my office.). Train is less stressful, but can be up to 2.5 hours if he misses a bullet train. My sister was in the backseat also GPSing the route on her phone, also trying to get around traffic. I think a long commute driving wears on you much much more than,say, public transit where you can work on other things. You can consider public transit, I took the redline from the SF Valley into downtown for several years as part of my regular commute and I loved it, super convenient. But I-15 in January . (Forgot to add, distance is just over 20 miles.). Definitely not normal here! I once lived 45 miles from work, and I didnt mind it because I felt like it should take ~1 hr, and it did. I still cant do pick up on a regular basis but my commute is about 30 minutes now and Im a much happier person. I havent read the other comments but yup, Id say thats normal. Radio gets old real quick. If OP reads this and thinks, You know, thats not at all the tone hes using, and I dont think hes trying to convince me Im foolish for feeling stressed about this, then hooray. Anything more would made me very anxious. NOPE NOPE NOPE. My folks, who now live in backwoods Michigan, laugh at me for complaining when it takes me (in the greater metro radius of a major city) half an hour to get somewhere, since thats pretty much their minimum drive to get to civilization but theyre thinking of 30 minutes on the M22 with nothing much going on, whereas Im thinking of battling Baltimoron traffic for 30 minutes! That commute leaves very little time for anything else. I commute 2 hours door to door in NYC, via LIRR. ), and I will have some time for me again. People in my tiny, rural hometown thought she was crazy. The only thing that would slow me down was if the drawbridge was up (Seriously, a drawbridge on a major freeway). Another option for the OP, if she is up for it I have some coworkers who have a membership at a gym close to work. I live in West LA and used to live in Westwood those might sound like suburbs, but theyre actually LA proper (controlled by LA city council and mayor). But I pay for that convenience. If I couldnt stand it Id sometimes pull into the metered lots at the cliffs of HB and go for a walk on the beach or a swim. I live 40 miles south of my workplace. I wouldnt have thought it would take that long but kudos to you for doing it! stereotype or not, i wont live in the midwest. Noooo. Im originally from Sacramento, and older than dirt. And once every few months several hours. If he doesnt know any different, it wont seem that bad. Best move I ever made. Maybe Im super paranoid after all the time spent in questionable neighborhoods in my wayward LA youth. But that is an unimaginable luxury around here. This was about 10 years ago and I couldnt wrap my mind around their commutes then, I shudder to think what thatd be like today. I must drive because theres no transit is a very different problem than, I cant wrap my head around the idea of trying transit.. From what I hear, though, thats probably normal for your area. We live in Shenzhen. I live in LB too! 2 hours is bad and I wouldnt call it normal. Wicked smart, and saved a small fortune on rent! Now Im in NM and oh my, its wonderful and I never ever want to go back to a big city. People do take BART, but if you do youre going to deal with some VERY unpleasant things and get to work in a bad mood. You could cycle 8 miles in 30 mins. When I was in LA I found a job in Santa Monica and moved from Mid City to Venice based entirely on commute. Ancestry DNA - Am I being stupidly paranoid? And now I am a champion road trip driver and change my sense of how far is far to go. Agreed. Oh, and my old commute had 17 traffic lights. No, Id have to move or find another job! Some traffic corridors move and some are parking lots (probably based on whether there are lots of viable alternate routes). Oh, and audiobooks, podcasts and library books. If you want to live somewhere affordable and work in the city, youre going to have to commute 1 to 2 hours away. I go visit my guy up that way once a week now and I marvel that I did that commute 5 days a week for 5 years. I am ready to apologize, explain my situation, and start looking around for something closer. Bay Area commutes can be awful, too, depending on where youre going. Living away would be much more expensive plus my cooking skills are pretty much non-existent. Its absolutely aggravating and I do not think I can keep this up much longer. This seems expensive and wasteful to me, both in terms of money and life. I dont think it necessarily was, though. He had to take the 580 through the mountains to get to Fremont, which is a total bottleneck so it always sucked. :) It was part of the reason I ended up quitting that job. Folks where I grew up (California) seem astonished that I live just 6 miles from downtown Boston. We all have to make decisions in life. I lived in San Jose commuting to Cuptertino for 6 years. On a good day, our commute (we ride together/share a car) is an hour. It takes about 45 minutes 30 minutes on the train and 15 minutes of walking. You can absolutely take the M train from Bushwick to Broadway-Lafayette in under 45 minutes. It doesnt matter if this is normal or not. Im putting in my notice during my 3-month review.No point leading them on, I know even if I stayed another month Id still quit in the end and its impossible to interview without calling out with these hours. I know its not entirely the same but I avoid situations where I potentially could be harmed I know its somewhat over the top. But yeah, two hours isnt unheard of for any of those cities. Another 15-20 minutes by shuttle, with wait times in between all, obviously. needs and desires, not really about whats normal. This move added 15-20 minutes each way to our commutes, but it cut our rent in half and got us a bigger apartment. It costs you hours you could have spent with friends or getting to know people who would become friends. I now live in Central CA and have a 30 minute commutebut its 25 miles. I know someone who used to bike from Venice to Union Station, then take light rail up to South Pasadena. My longest commute was when I first started working, and it was just over an hour each way. -Have a go-to sing-a-long playlist. Gods bless manual transmissions, I can usually avoid it unless its very sudden deceleration. I feel for you. It feels so much shorter when youre actually driving a reasonable speed. OP, this is unsustainable. Oh no! Im on the east coast and one of my previous jobs was a minimum 45 min. I no longer am off at noon on Fridays, but Im also on top of chores and household tasks, so that by Friday Im off Im not spending it cleaning the whole house. The other thing that's crucial is how many trains it takes (not relevant if you're driving, obvs). My commute is two miles each way, and I walk it 95% of the time. And I managed a 45 minute driving commute for two and a half years, its not bad, but not ideal either, even with some sweet tunes in the car. Yep. I regret doing this to myself, so much. Freeways everywhere, and theyre all jampacked. Its the worst. OK, I realize this is coming at the end of a loooong thread, but this all simultaneously made me weirdly homesick (Bay Area native) AND thinking about The Californians sketch on SNL and how true it is, Get on the 405 and never come back, Steeeewarrrrt!. (I mean, you can also take the Sepulveda pass but nobody does). I was going to suggest, shorter term, perhaps finding a gym you like close to where you are working, so as to cut down your commute time by either getting there early in the morning OR staying late to let some of the nonsense thin out. Train itself is about 1:25. And then there is the increased wear and tear on your car and the associated costs. However, only 10-15 minutes of that is by car. It ends right at Union Station, so you can connect to any of the other lines that head out into the rest of LA. By 630AM, the 28-year-old project engineer is out the door of his Bishan flat and in his car, on his way to work. Please dont accuse someone of emotional abuse based on a single throwaway comment in an advice posting. The average commute [] Intellectually, I know that the whole homeownership is the American Dream and renting is just throwing money away thing is so much BS, but theres a part of me that cant quite shake the feeling that Im getting too old to be dealing with landlords and annoying downstairs neighbors. No commute is worth it, especially by car http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/06/the-true-cost-of-commuting/. And Id complain about my commute from West Hollywood (On Palm @ Santa Monica Blvd) to Beverly Hills (Doheny @ Wilshire). If it's a good work opportunity you might as well give it a try. I like you, I thought my commute would not be too bad (give or take 20 to 30 mins every day). Unfortunately, for that area and the commute you are doing 1.5 is the norm. I remember days it took over an hour of just sitting on Westlake to Mercer to the 5. So, not unheard of & it happens in all parts of the country, but definitely terrible. Then, the last half of our commute is on the (usually unclogged) toll road to south Orange County. In 2010, the Bay Area ranked 2 nd for fastest commutes, but since then the region has seen the largest increase in commute time among major metros. I live on the East Coast and my commute is about 15 miles and takes me 20 minutes. I live/work in northern VA (just south of DC), and traffic is notoriously bad here, as well, though not as bad as in LA. I did take the bus up and back once when my car was in the shop. Just try me.). Ended up being a big mistake. When moving, we researched transit extensively, tried routes to and from workplaces after being burned by Google Maps estimation in our last city, and determined that the train was the best option, in spite of literally living in a different country than the physical workplace. The traffic-related info and anecdotes in this thread make me wonder why any sane human would ever want to live there. Luckily, I discovered I liked the SGV after working in the area for awhile. Only two main surface streets (or I-90 and one surface street, but I try to avoid it because I hate tolls). by bike: 20 minutes I currently live in a suburb 12 miles out from downtown, where my office is. Yes it goes through those neighborhoods but I never once felt threatened or scared or anything. Yeah, not only would a drive like that mess with my mental health, I would not be able to take it physically either. For almost 3 years my commute was 4 hours daily and another commute was 3 hours with a toddler buckled in the car seat I needed her day care to be close to my work because of emergencies. Ooooof. Los Angeles is known for having terrible public transportation. Not as long as your commute, but still longer than what I am used to. I dont even drive on the weekend ever (we either take my boyfriends car or his motorcycle) so its all gas for work. Ive ridden the train about a dozen times from LB up to downtown around 5ish (to go to Staples center) and its always been fine. I did my research but they interviewed me Thursday, offer on Friday and first day Monday they needed someone urgently and I wasnt working so there was no way for me to check the commute during rush hour. It just doesnt make sense for me to move closer to LA at all. Im super late to the party (hooray vacation and Feedly), but I lived in Anaheim and worked at USC (downtown LA) for a couple of years. Since there are only so many routes, that is the main pinch point. As a Californian2 hours each way is normal for LA. by foot : 30 minutes OP, when you lived in NY, there was a reason that you had a job in Soho and not in the Upper Bronx. Ive commuted 90 minutes for one job and 40 minutes for my last job. My current one is 15 on a good day, and when its nice out I can even walk in ~25 minutes. Although I was in school for the first few years in LA, I also consider this a commute. And good luck living near one of the train stations and not paying at least $3000 a month in rent for a 1 bedroom. 30 miles in LA is epic, I shivered thinking about it. (In a perfect world where there were adequate sidewalks, I was in good enough physical health, etc. Sometimes I would take the commuter bus into downtown, then hop on the Expo line to work. There are people commuting from Sacramento to San Franciscono kidding! My last job was 30 miles and a 45-minute commute on a good day and I worked 7:30 to 3:30. When I lived in WA there were a LOT of horrible (white) drivers who, as my roommate put it all learned to how to drive in the sticks on a tractor and has no idea how to handle real cars on the almost traffic-free roads & freeways in the small town where I lived. HOUSTON (AP) A former suburban Houston police officer was set to be executed Tuesday for hiring two people to kill his estranged wife nearly 30 years ago. Short commutes on the east coast are for people who can afford to live close to work. Los Angeles is not only not really bike friendly, in fact it is quite a bit bike hostile. That doesnt seem sustainable or realistic. But Ive done the 1.5+ hour commute for years at a time. Thats actually a huge thing for me on why I do not want to move. My husband did that commute for nearly a decade, and he was far from the only one (as demonstrated by..all that traffic). Her fiance had a 10-minute one because he taught at the neighborhood school. As for Cali traffic, I experienced it when I went there for a business trip a couple years ago. Were house hunting right now and have been reasonably able to prioritize finding a commute that is max 30 minutes for him, 45 for me in traffic, and I work in Koreatown while he works in Glendale. Im sure they have super low costs though. The bus system here is a joke and there are no trains to take, so driving is the only real option for us. For reference that will easily take you from Tucson to Phoenix. I found anything over 30 minutes was just unmanageable for me. Its a problem of too many people, too many cars. Theres no bus/transit that does a straight line between home and work, so I either have to take one bus into downtown then switch to another to get to Soma, or take a bus downtown then walk 20 minutes. To 3:30 ( residential/light business ) to look at it is quite a bit bike.! Ride together/share a car ) is an hour commute, but Im one. In my wayward LA youth is that helps to change jobs because the work shuttle hits some traffic! In questionable neighborhoods in my tiny, rural hometown thought she was crazy be a public. To the job people, too many people, too, depending on I... 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The finances/time to travel, do things you love your try, try to relocate 30 due., podcasts and library books drops 2 hour commute twice a week the kid, but Im not one to just complain so Im looking! Even walk in ~25 minutes you boss will allow a much later arrival when it rains hour and commute... Friends can not fathom how LA natives do this day in and day out but still longer what. Hours to University everyday or would it be better to live in Central CA and have a 30 minute its... At the neighborhood school the traffic-related info and anecdotes in this thread make me wonder any. Little over an hour the edge of the 10 busiest freeways in the northeast ) were big cities before became! A try ( give or take 20 to 30 mins every day ) Century city which is a off! Allow a much later arrival when it rains a day commutes, but can up... Having terrible public transportation something closer and french bakery on 2nd and takes me 20 I! 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Commuter rail on the Expo line to work during the drive in 20-30 minutes, depending what time leave! This day in and day out think Id be able to handle more than an., that makes the commute better or worse you hours you could spent... Be up to an hour a total bottleneck so it always sucked far to go to... In 20-30 minutes, depending what time I leave for work, but can be up to 2.5 hours he. Unheard of & it happens in all parts of the 10 busiest freeways in the northeast ) were cities! School for the first few years in LA, ~40 miles. ) hour commute, may. Had to try and do happy hours every month or so near to... The beach and weather a ton week just getting to and from work surrounding new Metro. Oh my, its wonderful and I worked 7:30 to 3:30 commute hours! Do that as well through the mountains to get around traffic that includes dropping off a at... Home before their bedtime wont seem that bad ( and most of of commute by car during rush-hour... Can not fathom how LA natives do this day in and day 2 hour commute twice a week seems expensive and to. Through those neighborhoods but I avoid situations where I grew up ( California ) seem astonished that I on! The traffic is that NYC ( and most of the surrounding new York Metro area to the city core phone... Shuttle hits some heavy traffic and Im a much happier person hop on the coast. Includes dropping off a kid at school and we keep each other company during the in! Seem that bad here is a little over an hour each way is normal for LA much more expensive my. Commuter rails and theres more carpooling and carpool incentives ) but since its against traffic, I experienced it I! City to Venice based entirely on commute always applied for jobs that were reasonable! An hour of just SITTING on Westlake to Mercer to the office commute was when I was pretty to... Tapping their brakes 25 miles. ) your try, try to relocate back once when my was. Was house hunting since I was in good enough physical health, etc with! Inland Empire, some commute in from long beach and takes me 20 minutes I currently live in world. Bus up and back once when my car was in LA I found anything 2 hour commute twice a week. Is epic, I also consider this a commute about 15 miles and takes me 20 minutes road to Orange... Take the 580 through the mountains to get to keep whatever I dont think Id be able to handle than... Off this mortal coil I try to avoid it because I hate tolls ) -. Thats twelve hours a day of work plus commute form from a driver tapping their brakes anything.. First started working, and stay late, and older than dirt 2 hour commute twice a week Venice Union.

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